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bigbluebrew
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« Thread Started on Feb 4, 2008, 1:00pm » | |
in England as well.
Never, in the field of human ignorance, have so many known so little about famous Britons.
A quarter of the population think that Winston Churchill never actually existed, a survey suggests.
While a poll recently named him the greatest Briton of all time, the wartime prime minister is seen by many as a mythical figure along with the likes of Florence Nightingale and Sir Walter Raleigh.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar....in_page_id=1770
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Shadow1670
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« Reply #1 on Feb 4, 2008, 1:51pm » | |
I'm curious. How would moving to private education (free market for profit) help in matters such as this?
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LordEgg
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« Reply #2 on Feb 4, 2008, 2:00pm » | |
accountability and no tenure...bureaucracy kills.
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Shadow1670
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« Reply #3 on Feb 4, 2008, 2:27pm » | |
I'm actually interested in this. How would a profit based non-publicly supported school system work? How would the curriculum be determined? Would it be for each school to decide? Would they continue to be general education or would it be more of a vocational type deal. Would the teachers need to be licensed or could anyone do it? Obviously there would be no department of education so everything would be done on a state or local level. Would then, different states, be able to set their own requirements?
Just the basic structure outline is what I'm interested in.
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TexasKat
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« Reply #4 on Feb 4, 2008, 2:39pm » | |
Add capitalism to schools, give incentives to teachers. Find a way to market it for kids at all levels. The right plan would surely be better than the dept of education.
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Shadow1670
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« Reply #5 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:00pm » | |
How would schools that were turning a profit, but not providing a good education be handled? Would people just send their kids to another school? (which would force the school to provide better education) What if there were no other schools in the area? Would someone with cash see the investment opportunity and start one to compete? And then there's the issue of tuition. What would people that couldn't afford tuition do?
I'm just curious as to how it would work.
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TexasKat
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« Reply #6 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:03pm » | |
^Those are excellent questions and I wish such things as this were discussed at the national levels. Let me think on some of the questions and solutions.
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LordEgg
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« Reply #7 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:07pm » | |
schools that didnt educate would be unlikely to turn a profit. i think tuition would meet the demand...that is to say, while richie rich would go to a toity school that cost alot, there would still eb significant money to be made in middle class and even charitable schools for the poor.
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LordEgg
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« Reply #8 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:07pm » | |
look at the private colleges and how they compete, against alot of odds really, with public universities.
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ender
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« Reply #9 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:28pm » | |
So, under a private system, those with money would receive better primary education than those without?
IMO (atm <- subject to change), primary education should be the same for all (or as much as can be allowed) and higher education should be made available based on merit obtained through primary education.
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vhcat1970
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« Reply #10 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:35pm » | |
Quote:How would schools that were turning a profit, but not providing a good education be handled? Would people just send their kids to another school? (which would force the school to provide better education) What if there were no other schools in the area? Would someone with cash see the investment opportunity and start one to compete? And then there's the issue of tuition. What would people that couldn't afford tuition do?
I'm just curious as to how it would work.
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One option is the voucher system: State gives parent(s) of every student a dollar amount voucher to take to the school of your choice. If you didn't like the education results, yes, send them to another school. It's your choice as to where you live, so if there's not a school in the area, home school or move.
Couple of rules needed:
- The voucher offered would have to be the only income expected from the student. I.e., there couldn't be tuition on top of the voucher. If the school won't go for just the voucher, then they're not in the program. Not to say they couldn't have fund raisers on top of the voucher income.
- New students would need to be accepted on a random basis versus beign cherry-picked by the school. I'd allow exceptions for siblings already in the school.
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vhcat1970
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« Reply #11 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:37pm » | |
Quote:How would schools that were turning a profit, but not providing a good education be handled? Would people just send their kids to another school? (which would force the school to provide better education) What if there were no other schools in the area? Would someone with cash see the investment opportunity and start one to compete? And then there's the issue of tuition. What would people that couldn't afford tuition do?
I'm just curious as to how it would work.
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Doesn't have to be for profit, just not "for loss". No reason religion-based schools couldn't be part of it - as long as they oppose terrorism.
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Shadow1670
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« Reply #12 on Feb 4, 2008, 3:48pm » | |
Quote:One option is the voucher system: State gives parent(s) of every student a dollar amount voucher to take to the school of your choice. If you didn't like the education results, yes, send them to another school. It's your choice as to where you live, so if there's not a school in the area, home school or move.
Couple of rules needed:
- The voucher offered would have to be the only income expected from the student. I.e., there couldn't be tuition on top of the voucher. If the school won't go for just the voucher, then they're not in the program. Not to say they couldn't have fund raisers on top of the voucher income.
- New students would need to be accepted on a random basis versus beign cherry-picked by the school. I'd allow exceptions for siblings already in the school. |
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I assume the voucher money would come from state tax dollars? Would the taxes come from everyone or only parents?
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LordEgg
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« Reply #13 on Feb 4, 2008, 4:34pm » | |
Quote:So, under a private system, those with money would receive better primary education than those without?
IMO (atm <- subject to change), primary education should be the same for all (or as much as can be allowed) and higher education should be made available based on merit obtained through primary education. |
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that's why you have state and local standards. NOT federal.
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ghorn19
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« Reply #14 on Feb 4, 2008, 4:53pm » | |
Take it from a guy who got as close to teaching as you can get, yet not actually take the plunge...................
The MAIN reason education is so spotty/poor in this country, in fact IMHO the ONLY reason that matters: We just don't value it as a society.
It's better to be cool, better to be good looking, better to be good at sports, etc. than do well at school.
It's too "white", or too "nerdy", or too "you think you're so smart".
We've dumbed down so much as a society we look at book learnin' as a threat, not something to be desired.
And by God, in this country, its been proven time and time again that you can really be somebody without it.................
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Wildcatwelder
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« Reply #15 on Feb 4, 2008, 5:02pm » | |
^^^Very true ghorn, which is why it's imperative parents get involve much more so that a lot of them do now.
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LordEgg
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« Reply #16 on Feb 4, 2008, 5:03pm » | |
we need to legislate against "coolness" and up the funding for
too white" and maybe we'll be making progress - Lib Logic
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ghorn19
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« Reply #17 on Feb 4, 2008, 5:14pm » | |
I did much of my observations/field work at what would be called a "working class" school.
So many of those kids have almost NO chance, you wouldn't believe the parental situations.............
As far as a "political" take on it? Its a failing across the board. Kids are nothing more than consumers to be marketed to.
Ditch-digger parents are doomed to have ditch-digger kids. And lawyers kids become lawyers..................Such "tracking" gets worse every year..................
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Wildcatwelder
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« Reply #18 on Feb 4, 2008, 5:18pm » | |
^^^By and large, that is correct, sad, but true.
Wife's aunt is a teacher at a "lower class" school and she has said it many times: that the parents just don't care. It's more of "day care" to them than a chance at bettering the child's mind.
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TexasKat
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« Reply #19 on Feb 4, 2008, 5:29pm » | |
A good friends wife is a vp at one of the high schools. Basically, she tried to make a difference when she first started but got shot down from every angle. She just about blackballed herself and now it's just picking up paychecks. She hates it and is looking to go private.
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ghorn19
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« Reply #20 on Feb 4, 2008, 5:35pm » | |
I think many on this board will agree, (because that's why we're here....lol) that there is a SERIOUS cultural trend of anti-intellectualism in this country.
Now I'm not picking on W, at least this time, but we've got a President that was intially very popular who used to brag about being a C student.............
(And yes, I know, many of our worst Presidents were among our smartest, I'm just making a point)
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Wildcatwelder
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« Reply #21 on Feb 4, 2008, 5:47pm » | |
Aside from parents getting MUCH more involved, what's the answer(s) in your opinion ghorn?
My oldest son is in his second year at EKU and has made either the Deans List or the Presidents List each semester. (Damn straight I'm proud!!)
BUT, when he had to transfer to a new middle school several years ago, his grades DROPPED, and I mean DROPPED. D's and F's !! His teachers told us many many times he was more than capable of doing the work, but for whatever reason, he wouldn't. He would tell us that he hated his new school, his teachers "sucked", etc., etc. Finally, we changed his address back to mine so he could transfer to the other school, and BOOM, I kid you not, ever since that time, the kid has NEVER made anything less than a B, NEVER. Point? Sometimes you gotta listen to your kids when they tell you something "sucks", lol.
IMHO, parents are the key, no matter their station in life. Just because you didn't apply yourself, just because you didn't aspire to better yourself, don't deny your child the opportunity to better himself. In fact, why would you? Makes no sense.
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ghorn19
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« Reply #22 on Feb 4, 2008, 6:00pm » | |
Could not have said it better welder........
Same thing happened to me in high school, Mom's illness, our financial difficulties etc.........I almost flunked out, how I didn't I'll never know. Two years later I'm in the Honors progam at UofL.....
There as SOOOOOO many factors and each individual is different. Too many kids who could have a bright future get lost in the cracks, family issues, nutritional issues, etc. etc.....
There is no answer, IMHO, because we just don't really care to ask the question.
EVERYBODY wants their kids to do well in school, but FEW people care about exactly what that takes.
And FWIW, I'm a FIRM believer that we're getting what we pay for with teachers. The benefits aren't worth a damn, the pay isn't great, the stresses are unreal (If you give a shit about doing the job right) etc. etc............Why in the WORLD would I get a Doctorate to make less than $60,000 a year and have some parent cuss me out because I called him on his kid???????
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TexasKat
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« Reply #23 on Feb 4, 2008, 6:08pm » | |
Discipline at home, education at school. Responsibility above all else.
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ghorn19
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« Reply #24 on Feb 4, 2008, 6:11pm » | |
BTW, good for you and your boy welder............... 
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commonsense
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« Reply #25 on Feb 4, 2008, 7:33pm » | |
Quote:Take it from a guy who got as close to teaching as you can get, yet not actually take the plunge...................
The MAIN reason education is so spotty/poor in this country, in fact IMHO the ONLY reason that matters: We just don't value it as a society.
It's better to be cool, better to be good looking, better to be good at sports, etc. than do well at school.
It's too "white", or too "nerdy", or too "you think you're so smart".
We've dumbed down so much as a society we look at book learnin' as a threat, not something to be desired.
And by God, in this country, its been proven time and time again that you can really be somebody without it................. |
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g, it depends on the school, the students and the parents. First, I will agree with you about people do not value teachers as they should. A teacher here could go work at Saturn or Nissan working on the assembly line and make double what a teacher makes. You get what you pay for.
As for sports, etc being more important that grades... that is highly dependent on the school. My daughter is a senior in hs... her gpa is 3.6 and that is only good enough to rank in the top 25% of her class. She made a 29 on her ACT so it's not that the grading scale is easy. A 3.6 is about what my gpa was out of school and that put me in the top 10% of my hs.
Schools are a reflection of the communities they serve. If those communities are involved in their schools, their schools will thrive. If the community expects the school to do the all the teaching without the support at home...they will be disappointed.
Not surprisingly, per capita income for the families that attend a school is the best single indicator of school performance. Find me the wealthiest school districts and I'll show you the highest performing schools. Show me the poorest districts and likewise, those will be the lowest performing districts. It's not that wealthy school districts have better teachers or pay more...they often pay less... but they have fewer distractions and more parental involvement.
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kilgoreforelle
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« Reply #26 on Feb 4, 2008, 8:03pm » | |
How would non-government education work. The same way it worked before the government got involved, back in the day when americans knew how to pioneer a continent, how to build bridges, how to connect coasts with railroads, how to communicate over wires, and so forth.
Parents decided how their children would be educated and to what extent. Communities decided what kinds of school they would have, what topics would be taught, and how much they would pay the teachers. But please note that communities formed schools long before state and federal oversight agencies came along
And these people were at least smart enough not to amend the constitution to provide income tax. I'll bet the income tax amendment is contemporaneous with the unionization of teachers and the idea that schools all had to teach the same things.
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kilgoreforelle
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« Reply #27 on Feb 4, 2008, 8:42pm » | |
I don't see any need for communities to be any better than they are. If they can't compete then so be it. Why do all segments of the country, every city, town, and village, need to be on equal footing?
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kilgoreforelle
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« Reply #28 on Feb 4, 2008, 8:55pm » | |
I'd like it if every team in the SEC, football and basketball, had .500 wl records, mandatorily. What exciting seasons those would be!
How is our government-monopolized school system different from pol pot's "re-education" camps? Answer, we have a much lower death rate.
I'll guess you'll think that's mean too, fredman. 
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Fredmanthecatfan
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« Reply #29 on Feb 4, 2008, 9:02pm » | |
I was being naughty again. (self edit)
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